Martin Luther King Jr. BBC Face to Face Interview in 1961 about his life experiences from childhood to becoming a leader

Interviewer: Dr. king, the most unexpected thing about you to me is that for a long time you've been a national leader of your people. You're one of the most influential figures I suppose in the United States and yet you're only 32 years old now. Did you have any special training for this kind of leadership when you were boy?

Martin Luther King Jr: No. I really didn't. I had no idea that I would be catapulted into a position of leadership and the civil rights struggle in the United States. I went through the discipline of early elementary school education and in high school in college and theological training. But never did I realize that I would be in a situation where I would be a leader in what is now known as the civil rights struggle of the United States.

Interviewer: It's your father who's also a Baptist pastor. As I know he's here a social reformer as well as the minister, always seemed less interested in this side of it.

Martin Luther King Jr: well. He's quite interested actually. He has had an actual interest in civil rights across the years. He is a pastor of a large Church in Atlanta Georgia. Incidentally I'm Co pastor of the church and he has had a strong interest in civil rights. He has been president of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People in Atlanta and he always stood out and social reform.

Interviewer: Do you think he saw that you would be a leader? Do you think he did in fact bring you up in some special way to face these responsibilities?

Martin Luther King Jr: Well. I think he certainly realized the need for this and after I decided to enter the ministry he constantly stressed the need for leadership and I'm sure that he hoped that I would stand out in this area. Whether he realized that our daughter not is something else but he certainly hoped for this.

Interviewer: What sort of home did you have as a child? Was it a strict home for instance?

Martin Luther King Jr: Wel. I guess it was a relatively strict coming up in a ministers home. I faced the discipline that you would face and a very fervent religious background. However I don't think it was over strict to the point that I developed any personality conflict as a result of my early childhood. But it was strict enough and I think it was strict enough for me to develop certain disciplinary principles as I came up.

Interviewer: We will quick starter at your lessons.

Martin Luther King Jr: Yes, I would say generally I was interestingly enough. I didn't start out with an interest to enter the ministry at first. After finishing high school, I was interested in going into law and also medicine at one point and all along I received a fairly good grades. But finally I decided to enter the ministry and then went on to theological school.

Interviewer: Well. Now when you were still a small boy before those decisions came along; were you conscious of color discrimination in your own life?

Martin Luther King Jr: Yes I became conscious of color discrimination at a relatively early age. I think, the first time was when I was about six years old. I had some friends who lived well. They didn't live in front of us. But their parents had a store. Two white boys and they were my inseparable playmates for the early years of my life and I remember when I was about six something started happening. When I went over to play with them they always made excuses. They could not play. They were busy and finally I went to my mother with this problem and she tried to explain to me in the best way she could explain to a child six years old and this was really the first time that I became aware of the racial differ cesare rather the racial problem. she made it clear to me that this system had a long history dating back to the time of slavery. She tried to explain the meaning of the system of segregation. But the thing I will always remember is that in the midst of her explanation she always said to me you must never feel that you are less than anybody else. You must always feel that you are somebody and you must feel that you are as good as anybody else and of course this came up with me in spite of the fact that I still confronted the system of segregation every day.

Interviewer: Was that a valent conflict in your life if you really believed your mother? And yet the system around you suggested that this wasn't true. It must have set up some sort of strain.

Martin Luther King Jr: Yes, I think so. As I look back over those early days, I did have something of and gained attention. On the one hand, my mother taught me that I should feel a sense of somebody nice. On the other hand, I had to go out and face a system which stabbed me in the face every day saying you are less than; you are not equal to. So this was a real tension within.

Interviewer: Now out of your own personal experience the only example you've given me so far is one family where the mother didn't too much care to have you play with her children. What were you really prevented from doing as a child that a white child might have done?

Martin Luther King Jr: Well, in my days in Atlanta as a child, there was a pretty strict system of segregation. For instance, I could not use the swimming pool. So that, for a long long time I could not go and swim in until the YMCA was built a Negro YMCA and they had a swimming pool there but certainly a Negro child in it could not go to any public park. I could not go to the so-called white schools. There were separate schools and I attended a high school in Atlanta which was the only high school for Negroes in the city and this was a real problem because in Atlanta there are more than 200,000 Negroes in many of the stores downtown. To take another example, I could not go to a lunch counter to buy hamburger, a cup of coffee or something like that. I could not attend any of the theaters. Only there were one or two Negro theaters. They were very small but they did not get the main pictures; if they got them, they were two years later three years late so that by and large there was a verse trick system of segregation and there was nothing called racial integration at that time in Atlanta.

Interviewer: Now that the description of the system. Was anybody actually cruel to you or violent you because you were colored?

Martin Luther King Jr: Yes. We did confront some of those problems. I remember as a child seeing problems of police brutality and this was mainly aimed at Negro children and Negro adults. I can remember also the organization that is known as the Ku Klux Klan. This is an organization that stands on white supremacy and an organization that in those days even used violent methods to preserve segregation and to keep the Negro in his place so to speak. Now I can remember seeing the Klan actually beat Negroes on some of the streets in Atlanta

Interviewer: But nobody ever beat you personally.

Martin Luther King Jr: No, I never.  I did have one experience which was a relatively minor experience but it still lived with me a good deal. When I was about 8 years old, I was in one of the downtown stores of Atlanta and all of a sudden someone slapped me and the only thing I heard was, somebody saying: you are that nigga that stepped on my foot and it turned out to be a white lady and of course I didn't retaliate it in a point. I finally went and told my mother what had happened and she was very upset about it. But at that time the lady who slapped me had gone and my mother and I left the store almost immediately.

Interviewer: Can you remember at this distance of time why you didn't respond in any violent way? Was it that you'd already thought of non-violence or was it that you just didn't dare as a Negro to take any strong action against a white?

Martin Luther King Jr: Well. I think, probably it was a combination of two things. I hadn't thought of non-violence at that early age as a system of thought. As a practical technique, I think a great part of it was that I just didn't think wouldn't dare retaliate. I hit back when a white person was involved and I think some of it was a part of my native structure so to speak and that is it I have never been one to hit back too much.

Interviewer: Well, that's all what 20 years or so ago, I suppose.  But how bad is the complaint today? After all the United States has changed a lot. The Negroes rights are protected under the law. How much as this system changed between then and now?

Martin Luther King Jr: Well. It has changed a good deal. It is far from what it ought to be, but I can see many many changes that have taken place over the last few years. For instance, in the same Atlanta Georgia which is one of the largest city in south. There are some Negro students in formerly all-white schools, some of the parks are integrated, some of the public parks just a few weeks ago about 107 to 7:00 lunch counters were open to new grows on a thoroughly integrated basis. I think I could say also that court injustice is not as glaring the reality today as it was 10 years ago. Police brutality has a diminished a great deal so that in Atlanta alone there are many changes and when I look over the total situation I can say the same thing for instance when the United States Supreme Court rendered the decision declaring segregated schools unconstitutional in 1954. Seventeen states and the District of Columbia practiced segregation in the public schools but today all I would say most of these states have made some move toward integration. Only three states are holding out, namely: the states of Mississippi, Alabama and South Carolina.

Interviewer: Yes.

Martin Luther King Jr: So that there has been a great change since say 1950 or 1945.

Interviewer: Now I can't help following you up at one point; there you said I think I'm quoting you more or less verbally correctly you said that the denial of justice was less glaring than it used to be and that police brutality had, I think, your words were somewhat diminished now it follows from that you're not content that the Negro gets justice in the United States as things are at present and you're not certain that the police do not victimize him.

Martin Luther King Jr: Well. Yes, I think we have moved on a great deal but we still face token integration. By token integration I mean a few Nick getting justice in a particular situation but the vast majority still confronting problems of economic insecurity and social isolation so that while we have moved on we only have token integration and the problem now is to move from token integration to overall integration. where it involves more than just a few students in a school, more than just a few lunch counters open, more than gaining justice in the courts, in a few situations but in every situation.

Interviewer: You spoke a moment ago about having been thrust forward into this position of leadership. How exactly did it happen? Why are you were 32 virtually the leader of the degress in the United States?

Martin Luther King Jr: Well. I started out as a pastor in Montgomery Alabama which is a state that adjoins the state of Georgia. After I finished my graduate, work in Boston I returned to Montgomery to Pastor a church. After I had been in Montgomery about a year we had the problem there huh of facing many indignities and in justices on the city buses. Negroes were treated and avert this courteous manner. The bus drivers usually talked to Negro passengers in very inhuman way. Not only that if one had visited Montgomery Alabama prior to 1955 ( December of 1955) he would have seen Negro passengers actually standing over him two seats. This was because the first ten seats were reserved for whites only and even if Negro passengers packed the buses and the other seats and there were no more seats left other than these seats reserved for whites only, Negro passengers could not sit there. So they had to stand over these seats even if a white passenger was not on the bus. Not only that there were times when Negro passengers got on the buses at the front and put the fat in the box and then they had to get off the bus and board by the the rear entrance. These were some of the conditions that existed and on the 5th of December in 1955 a negro woman was arrested a mrs. Rosa Parks for refusing to give up her seat for a boarding white male passenger. Pretty soon after she was arrested the word got around the Montgomery community and that was a spontaneous reaction. I think I could say safely that more than 99% of the Negro people of Montgomery rose up with a bit of indignation. Righteous indignation I would say and this led to the bus boycott. The Negro citizens decided not to ride the buses until these conditions were change. They asked me to serve as a spokesman and the president of the Montgomery Improvement Association and from this time I found myself in a leadership position in the civil rights struggle.

Interviewer: And the best boycott was of course a startling success under your leadership.

Martin Luther King Jr: Yes. We struggled for 381 days. But at the end of that, we returned to thoroughly integrated buses and they are integrated today in Montgomery.

Interviewer: Now, what is this position of leadership Katherine costume in personal terms? I mean, are you threatened? Do you get anonymous letters? Do you have had violence? Tell us a little what is involved in all that.

Martin Luther King Jr: Yes. I have been threatened many many times. There was a time that we received as many as 30 and 40 threatening calls a day and of course I receive numerous threatening letters. My Secretary has come to the point now that she doesn't show me most of these letters but occasionally I come across them within the last few days. I remember receiving a threatening letter and they say such things as this: you are causing too much trouble in this town and if you aren't out within ten days you and your family will be killed. Now in Montgomery our home was bombed twice and I guess these were the most severe instances of violence that we confronted. But even today we still confront threats through telephone calls and through the mail.

Interviewer: Have you found that the police have been diligent in protecting you as diligent as they would be with a white leader?

Martin Luther King Jr: Well. In Montgomery Alabama they were not certainly. We got no protection from the law enforcement agencies. In fact, one of the big problems that we confront in some situations in the south is that many of the mobs and hoodlums are aided and abetted by some of the policeman but I must say that this is a little different in Atlanta Georgia and we have received threats are when we have had crosses burned on our lawn by the Ku Klux Klan the policemen have been very diligent in attempting to protect us so that situations do vary even in the deep south.

Interviewer: You were once the victim of an actual assassination attempt. Were you not? 

Martin Luther King Jr: Yeah 

Interviewer: What happened?

Martin Luther King Jr: Well. This was in Harlem. I turned out to be a de minute Negro woman and she happens to be in an institution even at this hour for the criminally insane. I was autographing books and a bookstore in Harlem in New York and this was a book stride toward freedom that I wrote a few years ago and she came in I was writing and I heard someone say, "you Reverend King?" and I didn't hardly look up. I just said ,"yes." and by that time she leaned over and stabbed me and of course it was a near fatal stabbing. I was in the hospital for several weeks as a result of this.

Interviewer: But this was not actually, I mean, since the woman was demented, this was not strictly relevant to your campaign.

Martin Luther King Jr: No, I I don't think it could be included in events that took place as a result. Totally as a result of my work in civil rights area and yet I don't think it can be totally divorced because if I hadn't been involved in this she wouldn't have even known me. so that in some way it was connected but not totally.

Interviewer: During this period which must have been one of a very great strain for you. Have you felt frightened and even very lonely in your position of leadership?

Martin Luther King Jr: Yes. At times, I think honesty impels me to admit that there have been those times that I actually confronted fear. I don't think anyone in a situation like this can go through it without confronting moments of real fear. But I have always had something that gave me an inner sense of assurance and an innocence of security and in the final analysis even in the moments of loneliness something ultimately came to remind me that in this struggle, because it is basically right, because it is a thrust forward to achieve something, not just for Negro people but something that will save the whole of mankind and when I have come to see these things I always felt a sense of cosmic companionship so that the loneliness and the fear have faded away, because of a greater feeling of security, because of commitment moral ideal .

Interviewer: Does that carry you as far as feeling total confidence in yourself? For instance, for better or worse you've become the symbol ? Now of Negro emancipation in the southern states. Now, are you an adequate symbol? Do you feel that you're adequate?

Martin Luther King Jr: Well, again I must confess that there are those moments when I feel a sense of inadequacy as a symbol. It is never easy for one to accept the role of their symbolism without going through constant moments of self-examination and I must confess that there are moments when I begin to wonder I am adequate or whether  I'm able to to face all of the challenges and even the responsibilities of this particular position .

Interviewer: Have you always found that you've been able to keep your wife and children with you? or have you ever felt it necessary to send them away for safety?

Martin Luther King Jr: There have been times that I have had to send them away for safety. Particularly when we were in the state of Alabama but my wife happens to be one of those very strong persons and one who is very concerned about this whole matter and very dedicated and I can remember moments when I sent her away for safety. I would look up a few days later and she was back home because she wanted to be there.

Interviewer: Dr. King Keller, you're making progress in this. Now, could you make more progress if your demonstrations were based on more direct action on strikes? For instance, on a more direct economic threat in the way that some of the African people struggling for independence have tried to shape their destinies.

Martin Luther King Jr: Well, I do feel that non-violent direct action is a most powerful approach and seeking to bring about racial justice. Now to a degree, we have moved this area. The Montgomery bus boycott was a limited move in this area. The sit-ins that have engulfed the whole solve over the last few months would be another move in this direction. This is non-violent direct action, also the Freedom rights. I think all of these things are certainly serving to speed up the process and I think the more we delve deeper into these particular areas the more we will be able to bring about at least a speedier solution to the problem.

Interviewer: Some of your critics do say that you lack fire.  I've heard that said about you that you're not really keen on challenging accept on the margins of this problem. Now, I expect that's unfair but I'd like to hear your answer to it.

Martin Luther King Jr: Well, I don't know if I like fire. I do feel that at times. I I am rather soft or maybe a little gentle but on the other hand, I have strongly advocated direct action. I have made it clear that I believe this is one of the most potent weapons available to oppress people for and our struggle for freedom and human dignity so that I don't consider this a marginal approach. I consider this as an approach going to the very depths. I have participated in sit-ins myself. I have been arrested as a result of my participating in sit-ins with the students at lunch counters. I served as one of the coordinators of the Freedom Rides. It is true to say that I am NOT in accord with these particular methods. I believe in them and I have advocated the men participated in them.

Interviewer: I understand exactly why you believe in non-violence. But, have you found it easy to persuade your followers that non-violence is really the best method? I mean, there must be a great temptation to take a poke back at a white man who hits you.

Martin Luther King Jr: That is true that it is difficult at times to convince people that this is the best way and I guess it is difficult for all of us not to retaliate but on the whole I have been amazed at the tremendous response that we have gained when we have called for non-violent action. I look back over Montgomery and think of the fact that for all of these days, 381 days more than ninety nine and nine-tenths percent of the Negro citizens participated in the boycott. They confronted harassing experiences, they confronted physical violence and never did they retaliate with a single act of physical violence and the same is true of the student sit-in movement which included thousands of students, not a single. Well, I would say, very few retaliated with physical violence even though it is difficult.  I think, we have been able to get this method over in a most significant way.

Interviewer: Dr. King, apart from the business of discrimination, are you a radical in other causes? Do you follow the other great radical political causes in the world or not?

Martin Luther King Jr: Well, I'm not sure. What college?

Interviewer: Are you concerned for the abolishing of nuclear weapons? 

Martin Luther King Jr: Well ,oh yes!  I have worked very closely with this particular approach. I have worked with an organization for sane nuclear policy in the United States and I am a strong believer in disarmament and suspension of nuclear tests and some methods being used to arouse the conscience of mankind on this most important issue. As I've said so often I don't think the choice is any longer between violence and non-violence in a day when guided ballistic missiles are carving highways of death through the stratosphere. I think now it is a choice between non-violence and non-existence so that I have strongly endorsed organizations that are fighting or struggling in a creative nonviolent way to arouse the conscience of mankind on this issue.

Interviewer: Well, now let me put to you a last question. You could live and work in many parts of the world where you'd be discriminated against much less than you are in the United States. You are, I suspect a patriotic American citizen and you probably don't propose to live anywhere but the United States. Now, will you tell me ,"why?"

Martin Luther King Jr: Well, I can only say that the United States is home for me. I was born there and in spite of its shortcomings naturally there are things in the United States that I love in people that I love. I think we have a great tradition ideally the Democratic creed is a marvelous one and my work is simply an attempt to say to America that you have a marvelous ideal and you should live up to it and so when the students sit down at lunch counters and I have decided to join with them. I felt that we were in reality standing up for the best in the American dream and certainly the best in the dream of all mankind for peace and brotherhood. So, I live there with the feeling that we are moving in the right direction and with the feeling that this problem can be solved in the United States, if enough people give themselves to it, if they devote their lives to breaking down all of the barriers that separate men from men on the basis of race of color.

Source: Video clips of BBC published on YouTube

The speech is converted into text by Shakil Ahmmed